Change how weight for armour and character affect stats to allow for high-speed footcombat

Solairerection

Active member
May 28, 2020
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I would like to see a higher speed-bonus when going lean or underweight aswell as adding a speed-penalty when going over a certain armour-weight when you are lean or underweight. This could be tied to your strength aswell so lean mages aren't both fast and still somewhat tanky.

It would make it a clear choice if you wish to be faster but trading off for a lower ttk by having lower health and protections. I'm mainly concerned with the slow combat and zerg mentality the game currently has. Having viable choices for skirmishing and hit-and-runs will be good for those of us who aren't interested in zerg vs zerg or just want high-speed footcombat.
 

Jackdstripper

Well-known member
Jan 8, 2021
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you have to be careful when tweaking speed as it is the best stat in the game simply for the fact that you can disingage and just run away. Nothing can give you a better chance of staying alive. If slow characters don’t have a way to prevent others from running away, then speed will always be the strongest stat in the game.

already this game always ends up in endless chases across the map to try and finish a fight off.give even more speed to speedy characters and there won’t be any reason to play anything else as you will always be left behind in any fight.

if you give speedy characters more speed then you have to give slow ones a way to stop people from running away.
 
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Rorry

Well-known member
May 30, 2020
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you have to be careful when tweaking speed as it is the best stat in the game simply for the fact that you can disingage and just run away. Nothing can give you a better chance of staying alive. If slow characters don’t have a way to prevent others from running away, then speed will always be the strongest stat in the game.

already this game always ends up in endless chases across the map to try and finish a fight off.give even more speed to speedy characters and there won’t be any reason to play anything else as you will always be left behind in any fight.

if you give speedy characters more speed then you have to give slow ones a way to stop people from running away.
In MO1 they balanced it with stamina, but here we have very slow swing speeds so I don't know the solution, but I agree they need to do something.
 

Solairerection

Active member
May 28, 2020
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you have to be careful when tweaking speed as it is the best stat in the game simply for the fact that you can disingage and just run away. Nothing can give you a better chance of staying alive. If slow characters don’t have a way to prevent others from running away, then speed will always be the strongest stat in the game.

already this game always ends up in endless chases across the map to try and finish a fight off.give even more speed to speedy characters and there won’t be any reason to play anything else as you will always be left behind in any fight.

if you give speedy characters more speed then you have to give slow ones a way to stop people from running away.

I think this is mostly true when both have similar stamina pools or one party has a big enough space from pre-kiting that you can't engage to do damage, whether that is melee or ranged. Sure, it does happen that someone slips through and you are embarking on endless chase.
My thoughts are that with low enough health and resistances that instead of tanking hits and eventually slip through, you will instead have to rely just on speed and dodging to get out of danger.

I don't think most people will play a high risk playstyle even if it means "easier" disengagement, most seem very comfortable in heavier armours where they can tank a few hits.
 

Kelzyr

Active member
Sep 22, 2020
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I agree with this so much. Mages have no way to disengage from a fight if a fighter dives into the group. You have to turn and block until someone peels for you (if you have enough people to match the opposing group).

I don't think it's that crazy to think you should sacrifice some speed for the better armor. It would give a reason to be a light armored warrior instead of everyone just running around in plate because there is no reason to wear light armor unless you cast magic.
 

Rhias

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May 28, 2020
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I agree with this so much. Mages have no way to disengage from a fight if a fighter dives into the group. You have to turn and block until someone peels for you (if you have enough people to match the opposing group).

I don't think it's that crazy to think you should sacrifice some speed for the better armor. It would give a reason to be a light armored warrior instead of everyone just running around in plate because there is no reason to wear light armor unless you cast magic.
You know that you also have more stamina regeneration in light armor, right?
 
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Kaemik

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Nov 28, 2020
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Stam regen and speed drop-offs are both effects of heavy-weight armor. The issue is, they happen at an extremely high threshold. By the point you are losing stam or speed from heavier armor weight, then assuming you have any kind of decent strength/armor training, your mana regen is already at minimum. I am admittedly overdue to check what full stam armor is these days. Last time I crunched the numbers it was 15kg for every build regardless of max armor weight.

To a certain degree, this makes sense. Heavier armor is in general a more costly thing to make than light armor. To another degree, this makes no sense. The best version of leather, scale, fur etc. produces an armor much lighter than bone tissue/fullgrain set which you can farm up from pigs in 1-2 minutes.

Just making these materials better in isolation would do little though. Looking at protection per weight often you'll see a lighter/cheaper material offer more protection per weight than heavier material. For instance keeled scale has more protection per weight than horned scale despite horned being harder to obtain. For many sets, Keeled is arguably a superior choice of materials to heavier variants of scale.




It would take two changes to make the armor weight choice more meaningful for all builds:

1. Make benefits to dropping armor weight below what I refer to as "full stam armor" or the weight at which stam regen is 100% for builds that don't need mana.
2. Make multiple grades of material at the same class. For instance rather than heavier scales offering more base protection while lighter ones give more protection per weight, make them all of very similar weight with protections increasing the rarer/more valuable a scale type is intended to be. You would still be able to choose between fur/leather/scale/bone/metal etc. to play around with weights, but the difference between keeled and plate for instance would be more one of cost vs. effectiveness.
 
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MolagAmur

Well-known member
Jul 15, 2020
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The lowered stamina regen for being over 14kg is such a petty penalty. I would like to see speed penalties for armor after 4-6kg. Nothing too drastic...but noticeable. As a warrior right now, your goal is to be wearing steel armor or better as often as you can...because again the stamina penalty nobody even worries about.

If they did a change like this, we wouldn't even have to worry about making dex give more speed. It would give another playstyle of lighter armors (leather and scales) being used on players who want more of an agile warrior who sacrifices protection for speed. You could even then put some bow changes in there will the lighter armors allowing them to use less stamina and draw faster.
 

StreamerLord

Active member
Dec 2, 2020
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I would like to see a higher speed-bonus when going lean or underweight
That was nerfed just before beta. Fastest you could run was 460 you had next to no health but someone might have used that type of a build for a thief or maybe a horse tamer. No reason to use the lower weight settings now.
 

Kelzyr

Active member
Sep 22, 2020
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Stam regen and speed drop-offs are both effects of heavy-weight armor. The issue is, they happen at an extremely high threshold. By the point you are losing stam or speed from heavier armor weight, then assuming you have any kind of decent strength/armor training, your mana regen is already at minimum. I am admittedly overdue to check what full stam armor is these days. Last time I crunched the numbers it was 15kg for every build regardless of max armor weight.
Just finished my ohgmir, with both clade gifts and 100 in heavy armor training these are the results:
OgmirOP.png
Granted of course this is the worst cast scenario and only ohgmir can get to this level, but to be able to get to nearly 19kg with no penalties other than mana regen is actually insane...not to mention there are no speed penalties till 33.5kg.

I made a full messing/guard fur merc plate set and it weighs 30.46kg and did some very basic testing for stam regen:

Standing still
0kg -> 18.58s/384stam
30.46kg -> 26.23s/384stam

Walking
0kg -> 31.66s/384stam
30.46kg -> 44.1s/384stam

I could do more increments, but just as a difference between no penalties and a full messing set.
 

MolagAmur

Well-known member
Jul 15, 2020
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#makemediumarmorhavepurposeotherthanfalldamagereduction

No stam penalty until 19kg is a joke. Herius please...this is your job.
 

Kelzyr

Active member
Sep 22, 2020
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#makemediumarmorhavepurposeotherthanfalldamagereduction

No stam penalty until 19kg is a joke. Herius please...this is your job.
I know I said I think it would be good to make speed lowered as you wear more...but that might scare too many people.

What if we just lowered the no stam penalty to 4-10kg (somewhere in that range) and just leave armor training as the point where your speed gets affected. This would at the very least make armor sets under 16kg worth a shit other than just mana regen.

I still think it should affect speed (even by a little) so there is more incentive to use the lighter armors for builds outside of magic users. Light warrior builds for diving, archer builds for kiting, anything.

The way the system is set up now is just going to lead to 2 roles....heavy armor fighters (foot or mounted) and light armor mages. Little to no room for anything in between without severely gimping yourself for little to no gain.