250 Hour Combat Feedback

[PatWins]

After 250 hours of dueling players from all regions, I have compiled a list of suggestions I feel will improve the combat. I'm NA East,

Obvious Points

• Movement prediction needs improvement so that we may use footwork more reliably
• Counter attack bug needs fixing ASAP
  (feels so bad to parry and return with a normal uncharged attack)
• 360 blocking (this is being removed already)
• EU players need a slight handicap to mimic players with 100-115 ping or so if that's even possible
  (fighting players in that ping range feels completely fair but isn't too drastic)
• Handle hits need damage reduction

New Feedback

• Uncharged normal swings need higher damage values
• Weapon collision has potential but needs to be toned down
• Equipment hits should be removed from everything but shields and other weapons
  (this isn't an RNG mechanic but definitely gives you a feeling of RNG which feels really bad in an aim based melee game)
• Holding your weapon for over 10 seconds waiting to abuse blocks is straight up not fun even when you're the one using it
  Especially due to lag which causes parry window to be unreliable
• We are in desperate need of more FUN offensive options for getting around parries
• Name of the game is currently "Parry-baiting Online" I'm fine with this being an effective fighting style but not the ONLY fighting style

Overall I love the combat and feel it is off to a fantastic start.
Right now the biggest things are bug fixes, damage tweaks, equipment hits, collision reduction and a few more offensive play options.
I will continue to add to this as time goes on. Please leave your suggestions here as well.

 

[Eldrath]

All good stuff. I would like to see more momentum (being able to change direction not as rapidly) in characters for testing.

 

[bbihah]

First off I must disagree that the solution to good ping having it better than bad ping would be to handicap the ones with good ping.
If suggestions are about making everyone have a equally bad time over actually finding ways of making it more fair for people with worse ping, then the game is going nowhere else than in the dumpster.

Second, may I interest you in some "block delay"? Its what literally every game with similar fighting mechanics have in their game. Why does mortal online have to be so difficult about it? Its a good mechanic to allow you to while on the offensive to get around parries through actual feints and teamwork. If things like reaction times of high ping vs low ping becomes an issue, thats exactly why we are having a combat alpha? Tune that shit, let the server send and receive in a way that makes it so even if you have a high ping, you have sort of the same time to react. Also there should definitely be ping levels that just shouldn't be acceptable to play on, and thats a lot easier for SV to determine than us. (example 250+ ms)


Third, IMO as a part of the block delay, swings should travel slower while charging is faster(react blocking easier, while anticipating a block AKA holding a block years before the swing is coming is harder). I think its a good direction for combat to go and they should at least try it.

 

[PatWins]

First off I must disagree that the solution to good ping having it better than bad ping would be to handicap the ones with good ping.
If suggestions are about making everyone have a equally bad time over actually finding ways of making it more fair for people with worse ping, then the game is going nowhere else than in the dumpster.

Second, may I interest you in some "block delay"? Its what literally every game with similar fighting mechanics have in their game. Why does mortal online have to be so difficult about it? Its a good mechanic to allow you to while on the offensive to get around parries through actual feints and teamwork. If things like reaction times of high ping vs low ping becomes an issue, thats exactly why we are having a combat alpha? Tune that shit, let the server send and receive in a way that makes it so even if you have a high ping, you have sort of the same time to react. Also there should definitely be ping levels that just shouldn't be acceptable to play on, and thats a lot easier for SV to determine than us. (example 250+ ms)


Third, IMO as a part of the block delay, swings should travel slower while charging is faster(react blocking easier, while anticipating a block AKA holding a block years before the swing is coming is harder). I think its a good direction for combat to go and they should at least try it.

I agree on all points. Really like the idea of slower swings and faster charges. Thanks for the feedback.

 

[Veracious]

First off I must disagree that the solution to good ping having it better than bad ping would be to handicap the ones with good ping.
If suggestions are about making everyone have a equally bad time over actually finding ways of making it more fair for people with worse ping, then the game is going nowhere else than in the dumpster.

Second, may I interest you in some "block delay"? Its what literally every game with similar fighting mechanics have in their game. Why does mortal online have to be so difficult about it? Its a good mechanic to allow you to while on the offensive to get around parries through actual feints and teamwork. If things like reaction times of high ping vs low ping becomes an issue, thats exactly why we are having a combat alpha? Tune that shit, let the server send and receive in a way that makes it so even if you have a high ping, you have sort of the same time to react. Also there should definitely be ping levels that just shouldn't be acceptable to play on, and thats a lot easier for SV to determine than us. (example 250+ ms)


Third, IMO as a part of the block delay, swings should travel slower while charging is faster(react blocking easier, while anticipating a block AKA holding a block years before the swing is coming is harder). I think its a good direction for combat to go and they should at least try it.

I am completely opposed to the timed block of games like mordhau and chivalry because all those game are about is jsut tricking your opponent to parry early and thats it, thats basically the entire game and i find that very shallow compared to the more full control MO gives us with the combat controls.

 

[ElPerro]

I am completely opposed to the timed block of games like mordhau and chivalry because all those game are about is jsut tricking your opponent to parry early and thats it, thats basically the entire game and i find that very shallow compared to the more full control MO gives us with the combat controls.

there was a small blocking delay in MO1 tho, I wouldnt be opposed to something like that, but fuck anything like mordhau. Still gotta wait till they remove 360 blocking and see how combat evolves

 

[bbihah]

I am completely opposed to the timed block of games like mordhau and chivalry because all those game are about is jsut tricking your opponent to parry early and thats it, thats basically the entire game and i find that very shallow compared to the more full control MO gives us with the combat controls.

I think Mordhau has a little bit more control than mortal has.

In Mordhau, even without the completely broken "ducking" its fully possible to dodge swings (even without the dodge perk) with good footwork and sprinting. People avoid getting caught out when they got feinted all the time by reacting fast and moving. It also has an entire other mechanic that almost completely counters people who is just feinting with little other plan, chambering.

Mordhau combat has so much depth to it that it makes Mortal Online look like a game made by some devs that made a game as they were finishing schoo... oh yeaaaah...


But in the end, they don't directly compare since there are more things to mortal online that limits the way it can do combat (persistent world, server limitations, international community on one server, magic, npcs etc etc), but there is a reason why things like feinting exist in it. Without it, it would be a game of either 100% stamina management and fights would take forever until someone runs out of stamina or it would be a parry counter fest until someone screws up too many times. Sound familiar?


For right now though, the only thing I can think of that would add more depth to combat with very little work and that can go straight to testing to atleast get a feel how it would work even further down the line. Is a block delay. Another thing that would probably get added would be, block delay reset upon successful parry (make you able to parry multiple opponents in quick succession. As without it 1v2+ fights will feel mostly hopeless and the overall feel and flow of a fight like that just wouldn't sit right.

there was a small blocking delay in MO1 tho, I wouldnt be opposed to something like that, but fuck anything like mordhau. Still gotta wait till they remove 360 blocking and see how combat evolves

The only thing you will see after 360 blocking is removed in the immediate future is either a) people still turtling, because people actually dont just sprint AROUND people faster than they can turn, especially if the net code holds up or b) loads of people abusing poor netcode and combat regressing back into mo1 chasing peoples tails in the lag. Neither which are to anyone satisfaction.

 

[bbihah]

An alternative to a block delay would be something like how the elder scroll games(including their tab targetty mmo) handles melee combat.
Blocking is real easy, but holding a swing all the way does a heavy attack punching through the block(in TES it doesnt do any damage but rather stagger, but stuns and things like that is probably not the way to go about it in MO and MO should just have you do damage through it). This means swings need to do a bit more damage than they do now when not charged all the way and you cant hold swings past the point when it gets fully charged, upon which the attack gets released.


Which yet again brings timing into the gameplay, (which some people who apparently prefer a system where everyone just exploits the netcode instead don't like). This is a bit more attacker biased way of doing it. All someone defending can do against an attacker is run when the attacker is actually charging a full hit. In Elder scrolls you can bash the attacker, but then again. Stuns/staggers are sort of a sore spot for a game like MO.

Honestly don't see something like that working particularly well in MO. It works in TES/O because of a lot of other mechanics, including stuns and characters changing speed alot. Knowing MO and its prediction system the constant change of speeds from attacking and blocking would rip the prediction system a new poopchute.

 

[PatWins]

I am completely opposed to the timed block of games like mordhau and chivalry because all those game are about is jsut tricking your opponent to parry early and thats it, thats basically the entire game and i find that very shallow compared to the more full control MO gives us with the combat controls.

Yeah definitely not the delay of Mordhau but I would be ok with a tad more delay than what's currently in the game.

 

[WesleySnipes]

The solution definitely shouldn't be to hurt people with low ping, but there needs to be some way to help with people higher ping. From east coast to london it isn't terrible, it isn't as good as it can be. From west coast to london, depending on certain factors the game can range from unplayable to barely tolerable. Reaching the highest echelons of competition for west coast players will be very very difficult because of latency.

MO2 can not succeed without NA players; if that's even the goal of the game. Some times I wonder if Henrik just wants a little sandbox he can play with friends while using NA players as punching bags. The more I play MO2 the more I realize why more mmos don't jump on to directional combat; it's an absolute engineering nightmare to make work on a larger scale.

 

[bbihah]

I still think the absolute best case scenario for release or shortly after release for the differences in ping would be: Much more fair between high and low ping (and atleast not absolutely horrible for high vs high ping) AND a second continent where the server is hosted in NA. Players can travel freely between the two continents, just like players can with sarducaa in mo1.

But I can see why they are working towards the first part but probably not the second part. A lot of effort and money has to go into it. But maybe once the game is out and a lot of the outstanding issues are going away? Content should with the current dev team be able to be put out atleast faster than it could in mo1 while working on something like this. But the game also needs a big enough player base for it to be worth it.

 

[ElPerro]

MO2 can not succeed without NA players; if that's even the goal of the game. Some times I wonder if Henrik just wants a little sandbox he can play with friends while using NA players as punching bags. The more I play MO2 the more I realize why more mmos don't jump on to directional combat; it's an absolute engineering nightmare to make work on a larger scale.

Yeah Im starting to think that as well. If Henrik really wanted his whole "one server" dream to work, he would put the server in a central location like the east coast, but he doesnt want to lose his competitive edge. Tbh the guy is already rich and this is just a hobby project for him, I doubt he really expects the game to go big.

 

[Rathius]

Yeah Im starting to think that as well. If Henrik really wanted his whole "one server" dream to work, he would put the server in a central location like the east coast, but he doesnt want to lose his competitive edge. Tbh the guy is already rich and this is just a hobby project for him, I doubt he really expects the game to go big.

Henrik needs the game to be fairly popular financially. According to this article: https://www.avanza.se/placera/telegram/2020/05/15/star-vault-resultat-fore-skatt-09-mln-kr-1-kv.html he needs about 4500 monthly subs just to break even. That is no small playerbase at all.

In order to achieve this player count he'll need to choose a region to cater the game to that'll optimize the ping for the most amount of players so they continue to pay for the game.

 

[Teknique]

Yeah definitely not the delay of Mordhau but I would be ok with a tad more delay than what's currently in the game.

I hate idea of a block delay because it’s one more thing for hackers to set to 0

not being able to kill good players: frustrating

good players not being able to kill hackers: game destroying

it’ll probably make it impossible to parry with high ping again too

 

[Dracu]

i like the slower swing ide

I hate idea of a block delay because it’s one more thing for hackers to set to 0

not being able to kill good players: frustrating

good players not being able to kill hackers: game destroying

it’ll probably make it impossible to parry with high ping again too

A block delay from holding a swing to a block would be neat, its a bit stupid to switch from an attack instantly into a block/parry. This parry baiting is ruining combat atm, either you want to attack or you want to block. you cant change from block to full swing but you can from attack to parry.

I am all for removing that OR make it not a parry but a block so no counter and some damage.

 

[Teknique]

i like the slower swing ide

A block delay from holding a swing to a block would be neat, its a bit stupid to switch from an attack instantly into a block/parry. This parry baiting is ruining combat atm, either you want to attack or you want to block. you cant change from block to full swing but you can from attack to parry.

I am all for removing that OR make it not a parry but a block so no counter and some damage.

Yeah but what happens when you just set your block delay to 0 with cheats. May as well have it be fair from the jump and have no block delay.

that particular move holding a swing to a block could be changed but idk it’s not like thats a particular problem. That would be a random change that wasn’t in mo 1

 

[Dracu]

Yeah but what happens when you just set your block delay to 0 with cheats. May as well have it be fair from the jump and have no block delay

cant really design games around what a hacker might could do when you can try to prevent the hacking in the first place.
Its like saying we cant have hard coin you can carry just because a hacker might dupe it that way.

 

[Teknique]

cant really design games around what a hacker might could do when you can try to prevent the hacking in the first place.
Its like saying we cant have hard coin you can carry just because a hacker might dupe it that way.

With a game that has no demo recording/viewing, 4 gms, and no anti cheat not only can you design your game around that but you must

 

[Dracu]

With a game that has no demo recording/viewing, 4 gms, and no anti cheat not only can you design your game around that but you must

but tbh, mo1 didnt had that many hackers that really went overboard with stuff like this. I encountered in my time only 2 serious hacking cases.
making it 'worse' for the whole playerbase just to make it harder for a few ppl is somewhat... not really a good decision.

 

[Zbuciorn]

I still think the absolute best case scenario for release or shortly after release for the differences in ping would be: Much more fair between high and low ping (and atleast not absolutely horrible for high vs high ping) AND a second continent where the server is hosted in NA. Players can travel freely between the two continents, just like players can with sarducaa in mo1.

But I can see why they are working towards the first part but probably not the second part. A lot of effort and money has to go into it. But maybe once the game is out and a lot of the outstanding issues are going away? Content should with the current dev team be able to be put out atleast faster than it could in mo1 while working on something like this. But the game also needs a big enough player base for it to be worth it.

I like the idea of one world with continents having separate servers in US,EU and Asia.