Territory Control / Assets: Gates, they sucked. [Poll]

[Kaemik]

There has been one successful Open World PvP MMO in the history of MMOs since the fall of UO and you don't want to learn anything from it or apply any of it's lessons?

Mentalities like that are why games like this fail.

If good fallback points killed PvP MMOs, EVE wouldn't have succeeded. Period. The system I'm advocating (keeps being good fallbacks for their owners but nowhere near good resources) are par for the course or slightly hardcore compared to most PvP titles. Way more hardcore than EVE for sure. If you want more than that, you're not being hardcore, you're asking for easy mode ganking compared to nearly every other Open World PvP title on the market.

Even in a survival title like Ark, Atlas, Conan Exiles etc. if I want a good fallback point I can create a series of two gates with defenses that blast you if you try to fight me while I'm closing the front gate and no way to access the rest of my base unless I open the 2nd. and those games don't make it hard to pop a gate open. We should at minimum be able to do the same style things here.

Advocating for your own style of play to be made easier than it is in any comparable title is not hardcore. Being a ganker doesn't automatically make you hardcore. If you can't find dozens of simple gank targets in nearly any active PvP MMO you're hardly breathing. You want ganking to be good? Put resources in areas you have to fight over them and make the game not suck so there are actually people playing. Literally the only two things required. If you still aren't getting ganks past that point the game isn't the problem. The problem is you suck.

 

[Solairerection]

There has been one successful Open World PvP MMO in the history of MMOs since the fall of UO and you don't want to learn anything from it or apply any of it's lessons?

Mentalities like that are why games like this fail.

If good fallback points killed PvP MMOs, EVE wouldn't have succeeded. Period. The system I'm advocating (keeps being good fallbacks for their owners but nowhere near good resources) are par for the course or slightly hardcore compared to most PvP titles. Way more hardcore than EVE for sure. If you want more than that, you're not being hardcore, you're asking for easy mode ganking compared to nearly every other Open World PvP title on the market.

Even in a survival title like Ark, Atlas, Conan Exiles etc. if I want a good fallback point I can create a series of two gates with defenses that blast you if you try to fight me while I'm closing the front gate and no way to access the rest of my base unless I open the 2nd. and those games don't make it hard to pop a gate open. We should at minimum be able to do the same style things here.

Advocating for your own style of play to be made easier than it is in any comparable title is not hardcore. Being a ganker doesn't automatically make you hardcore. If you can't find dozens of simple gank targets in nearly any active PvP MMO you're hardly breathing. You want ganking to be good? Put resources in areas you have to fight over them and make the game not suck so there are actually people playing. Literally the only two things required. If you still aren't getting ganks past that point the game isn't the problem. The problem is you suck.

There are guardzones in NPC towns already, which work very well as "fallback points" as you like to describe them.

TC isn't meant to be your personal guardzone, it's meant exactly as it's labeled - controlling territory. You are safe behind your gates, as long as they are closed (or someone knocks it down), but as soon as they are opened you better be prepared for what is outside. If you think having to actively defend your own territory yourself to be an extreme idea, there is always the option to opt out of it.

But I think we drift too far away from the original topic; which was if a gate should function like it, currently, does in MO1. Which is a solid no, because it shouldn't open and close like a fucking pinball flipper.

 

[Kaemik]

If territory is meant to be controlled manually, that doesn't require a system. You just do it. TC is and always has been about investing in an area to develop assets that make the job of controlling territory easier in every game it exists. Strongholds that serve as good fallback points for your group, is the bare minimum of what that should entail, and usually does in damn near every comparable title.

 

[ElPerro]

There has been one successful Open World PvP MMO in the history of MMOs since the fall of UO and you don't want to learn anything from it or apply any of it's lessons?

Mentalities like that are why games like this fail.

If good fallback points killed PvP MMOs, EVE wouldn't have succeeded. Period. The system I'm advocating (keeps being good fallbacks for their owners but nowhere near good resources) are par for the course or slightly hardcore compared to most PvP titles. Way more hardcore than EVE for sure. If you want more than that, you're not being hardcore, you're asking for easy mode ganking compared to nearly every other Open World PvP title on the market.

Even in a survival title like Ark, Atlas, Conan Exiles etc. if I want a good fallback point I can create a series of two gates with defenses that blast you if you try to fight me while I'm closing the front gate and no way to access the rest of my base unless I open the 2nd. and those games don't make it hard to pop a gate open. We should at minimum be able to do the same style things here.

Advocating for your own style of play to be made easier than it is in any comparable title is not hardcore. Being a ganker doesn't automatically make you hardcore. If you can't find dozens of simple gank targets in nearly any active PvP MMO you're hardly breathing. You want ganking to be good? Put resources in areas you have to fight over them and make the game not suck so there are actually people playing. Literally the only two things required. If you still aren't getting ganks past that point the game isn't the problem. The problem is you suck.

You talk of easy mode ganking like these are tutorial noobs and not zerg guilds that probably already have reinforcements and/or guards ready to help. Their keep is already a good fallback point lmao, they dont need insta closing gates as well. If they cant hold a gate for the short time it would take to close it, they deserve to get invaded.

 

[Kaemik]

If guards end up being good and we have some control of base layout, that's fine. A gate 1, killbox, gate 2 configuration would be fine.

 

[Teknique]

There has been one successful Open World PvP MMO in the history of MMOs since the fall of UO and you don't want to learn anything from it or apply any of it's lessons?

Mentalities like that are why games like this fail.

If good fallback points killed PvP MMOs, EVE wouldn't have succeeded. Period. The system I'm advocating (keeps being good fallbacks for their owners but nowhere near good resources) are par for the course or slightly hardcore compared to most PvP titles. Way more hardcore than EVE for sure. If you want more than that, you're not being hardcore, you're asking for easy mode ganking compared to nearly every other Open World PvP title on the market.

Even in a survival title like Ark, Atlas, Conan Exiles etc. if I want a good fallback point I can create a series of two gates with defenses that blast you if you try to fight me while I'm closing the front gate and no way to access the rest of my base unless I open the 2nd. and those games don't make it hard to pop a gate open. We should at minimum be able to do the same style things here.

Advocating for your own style of play to be made easier than it is in any comparable title is not hardcore. Being a ganker doesn't automatically make you hardcore. If you can't find dozens of simple gank targets in nearly any active PvP MMO you're hardly breathing. You want ganking to be good? Put resources in areas you have to fight over them and make the game not suck so there are actually people playing. Literally the only two things required. If you still aren't getting ganks past that point the game isn't the problem. The problem is you suck.

Let’s be clear about something.

Since you and I are here. We both are of the opinion that mo is the most successful mmorpg. Otherwise you would just be at eve.

 

[Godkin Veratas]

You talk of easy mode ganking like these are tutorial noobs and not zerg guilds that probably already have reinforcements and/or guards ready to help. Their keep is already a good fallback point lmao, they dont need insta closing gates as well. If they cant hold a gate for the short time it would take to close it, they deserve to get invaded.

Another obvious and good point from a knowledgeable and skilled MO veteran.

If guards end up being good and we have some control of base layout, that's fine. A gate 1, killbox, gate 2 configuration would be fine.

Someone doodling plans for a GK keep in MO2.

 

[Kaemik]

Let’s be clear about something.

Since you and I are here. We both are of the opinion that mo is the most successful mmorpg. Otherwise you would just be at eve.

No, MO was a terrible MMO to be frank. It had some fantastic ideas and implemented them very poorly. It was buggy, the combat felt terrible, you needed to know your build on character creation to select the appropriate race/age combo, and people had like 15 characters.

I'm here, in MO2, because I want to see those fantastic ideas improved upon, and much of what the devs promised for MO2 sounds like just that. And I don't want to see it fucked up by the same crowd that kept them from fixing Thursar/Khurites for 5+ years.

If this game ends up anything like MO1 beyond carrying over the GOOD ideas, I would gladly go play prettymuch any other game. And the idea that a TC system should require half your guild online at all times to function is one of the worst ideas I've seen promoted here.

 

[Teknique]

No, MO was a terrible MMO to be frank. It had some fantastic ideas and implemented them very poorly. It was buggy, the combat felt terrible, you needed to know your build on character creation to select the appropriate race/age combo, and people had like 15 characters.

I'm here, in MO2, because I want to see those fantastic ideas improved upon, and much of what the devs promised for MO2 sounds like just that. And I don't want to see it fucked up by the same crowd that kept them from fixing Thursar/Khurites for 5+ years.

If this game ends up anything like MO1 beyond carrying over the GOOD ideas, I would gladly go play prettymuch any other game. And the idea that a TC system should require half your guild online at all times to function is one of the worst ideas I've seen promoted here.

I don't believe you.

 

[Kaemik]

I discovered MO1 before it hit beta.

Buddy, if that game was good, I would definitely claim vet status.

 

[Godkin Veratas]

Let’s be clear about something.

Since you and I are here. We both are of the opinion that mo is the most successful mmorpg. Otherwise you would just be at eve.

Teknique, he's not in MO because it is, or ever was a good game. It's because it has potential that ONLY he can unlock, but only if he defeats all the people that actually played it on the forums. MO could then become almost as good as EVE. Thankfully, Kaemik is here to join every thread and correct the horrible views of veterans that are biased with decades of collective experience. Don't you see?

Also, don't see a need for cooldown on usage with the other suggestions, imo.

 

[Kaemik]

Yes. If you believe MO1 was not horribly fucked up on many levels and were one of the people cheering them on as they allowed some rather small fixable problems to render that game damn near unplayable for over a decade, I'm absolutely here to fight that mentality so MO2 does not suffer the same fate as MO1.

I LOVED the details in the crafting system. I LOVED the intention to detail and focus on immersion. I LOVE the fact it's full loot and force first-person. But ultimately as close as it came to being a great game, things like already needing to know your build at character creation absolutely ruined a game I could have enjoyed.

And I remember at the time the MO1 community cheered them on like "It's really not that big of a deal" when everyone who played the game was having to reroll their original character because the game was so fucked up. Yes, the MO1 community, particularly the forum community, were cancerous idiots that destroyed their own game. And I'm seeing the same general mindset that killed MO1 echoed repeatedly here.

"New player experience isn't worth investing in", "TC should only function when your guild is online" these are the same vein or horrible ideas that kept me coming back to MO1 for ten years saying "Is that game that's nearly the perfect MMO except for these few issues that make it a steaming pile of shit actually good these days? No, still as horrible as ever? Guess I'll give it another few years." I gave that game like 5 tries over the 10 years that it existed and I was consistently blown away by how close it was to being amazing, and how horrible it actually was.

 

[Teknique]

I discovered MO1 before it hit beta.

Buddy, if that game was good, I would definitely claim vet status.

While the gate issue seems much less significant without TC walls. They were one of if not the most unbalanced structure in their design in the game.

Any suggestion otherwise is lunacy.

How much that matters now, is unclear.

I would say 60-70% of all mortal players of various play styles, farmer, dungeon runner, you name it, saw some problem with gates.

 

[Kaemik]

I'm not suggesting the ability to have insta-closing gates wherever you want them isn't broken. Because that's an irrelevant discussion here.

I'm taking two facts we know:
1. You can only place keeps in keep spots.
2. You can only put walls on keeps (Confirmed, Henrik straight up said that)

And applying it to a universal truth of PvP titles:

Having solid fallback points is a good TC feature and one of the primary points of even having a TC system.

And then I'm using it to draw a conclusion:

Insta-closing gates aren't a big deal. While not the ideal mechanic to make keeps a good fallback point, you should generally be safe by the time you're close enough to your own keep to be inside the guard's range.

 

[Godkin Veratas]

And I remember at the time the MO1 community cheered them on like "It's really not that big of a deal" when everyone who played the game was having to reroll their original character because the game was so fucked up. Yes, the MO1 community, particularly the forum community, were cancerous idiots that destroyed their own game. And I'm seeing the same general mindset that killed MO1 echoed repeatedly here.

Experience gives perspective. Don't take this the wrong way, but I doubt you'll last through the summer. I do hope you'll stick around the forums though, your posts are entertaining.

 

[Teknique]

Yes. If you believe MO1 was not horribly fucked up on many levels and were one of the people cheering them on as they allowed some rather small fixable problems to render that game damn near unplayable for over a decade, I'm absolutely here to fight that mentality so MO2 does not suffer the same fate as MO1.

I LOVED the details in the crafting system. I LOVED the intention to detail and focus on immersion. I LOVE the fact it's full loot and force first-person. But ultimately as close as it came to being a great game, things like already needing to know your build at character creation absolutely ruined a game I could have enjoyed.

And I remember at the time the MO1 community cheered them on like "It's really not that big of a deal" when everyone who played the game was having to reroll their original character because the game was so fucked up. Yes, the MO1 community, particularly the forum community, were cancerous idiots that destroyed their own game. And I'm seeing the same general mindset that killed MO1 echoed repeatedly here.

"New player experience isn't worth investing in", "TC should only function when your guild is online" these are the same vein or horrible ideas that kept me coming back to MO1 for ten years saying "Is that game that's nearly the perfect MMO except for these few issues that make it a steaming pile of shit actually good these days? No, still as horrible as ever? Guess I'll give it another few years." I gave that game like 5 tries over the 10 years that it existed and I was consistently blown away by how close it was to being amazing, and how horrible it actually was.

This "forum community" you're referencing got virtually nothing that they asked for here so assigning the blame to them is illogical and deceptive.

People who sound very much like yourself are the ones who got things that they wanted.

Specifically. The loss of the war dec system, MORE difficult sieges, OP super grindy magic schools, super mounts, polesword nerfs, no more deed drops, indestructible guilds, sledgehammer mounted that hit oghmium for 70.

What we didn't get

Gate nerfs. Therefore the people who are talking about gate nerfs in this thread didn't kill shit.

The people who sound like yourself got the changes that they wanted and the game died promptly.

The "forum community's" way was never tried

You owe us an apology.

 

[Kaemik]

You got one viable race/age combo per build for years, and the new player experience ingored just as long. I realize you're not "MO1 vet" enough to know this because you only found the game around the time fat mages were a thing. But you missed a great many years that this community basically shat on the idea new player experience was important and the devs regrettably listened, and it's a huge reason MO1 died.

If there is one thing I know about MO1 better than anyone else, it's the new player experience. Because I went through it every year or two for the entirety of that game's existence. And it was always bad enough I never got past it.

 

[Teknique]

You got one viable race/age combo for years, and the new player experience ingored just as long. I realize you're not "MO1 vet" enough to know this because you only found the game around the time fat mages were a thing. But you missed a great many years that this community basically shat on the idea new player experience was important, and it's a huge reason MO1 died.

I personally played

A tindremene, a thursar khurite, 4 bulging sheevras, an oghmir, 2 thursar khurite sidoans, a thursar kallard, a pure khurite, a veela age 26, a veela age 30, an oghmir wheel char, an oghmir mounted archer with dex, and probably more.

No one here wants there to be one race strawman and a half.

Thats all you got, people were mean 10 years ago on a new game?

Thats why all the bad suggestions people like you got actually helped the game

and the 0 suggestions we got killed it?

Please

 

[grendel]

I mostly just troll and usually dont engage in attemps to derail SV from their ideas. I do not have vast knowledge of other mmo mechanics or any psychological insight in their players reasons for playing them. But I know that MO is the only mmorpg I ever truly enjoyed. I know that after MO1 TC the game started to become less fun. I always played with the safe fallback of npc towns. With free wall placement safe fallbacks became one player farming stations, the landscape became horribly scarred with ugly walls, traffic decreased and so did pvp and the exciting danger of travelling. Make shit too safe and you kill the game for everyone casual or random pvp oriented. If "safezones"(who was safe in tindrem? no one, it was the most exciting town to live in cause of all the thieves and murderers) are only at keeps and npc towns I think balance between playstyles are kept. If safezones are avaivable to anyone who farm enough, it will kill the fun for a large part of the players.

 

[Kaemik]

Like I said. I'm going to play an Uno reversal card and say you're not "MO1 vet" enough to talk about this subject. By the time fat mages were a thing the racial imbalance was starting to get a bit better. It was much worse for many years before you arrived. A fact which I well remember having debates just like this where the MO1 community said "this is fine."

I don't know the specifics of what you did and didn't get in every argument over the years. But I do know this, vets in every game complain about how the devs never give them what they want and how if they got it, everything would be better. And in every game I've tracked long enough to know the full story, they're absolutely full of shit. Devs almost always give their veteran community a huge amount of what they ask for. And then they focus on the areas the devs defied them. It's just the natural order of things.

I know vets cheered SV on, on one of the biggest issues that ruined the game for me, and got their way until the devs were prettymuch forced to fix an issue that should have been fixed month 2 instead of many years into development. And it was a half-cocked bandaid fix even then IMO.